097 | 70% of Homeowners Regret Buying in an HOA. What’s Going On?

Julie Adamen 00:00

Don’t forget, 20% of your pro 20% of your people are going to cause 80% of your problems. So let’s look at what we can do to help mitigate some of that 20% 20 to 30% in there and so and do the best that we can and honestly with with technology now, using AI of some sort, you really have no excuse not to communicate with your homeowners more often and more easily for you, Hoa

Announcer 00:26

Insights is brought to you by five companies that care about board members, association, insights and marketplace Association, reserves, community, financials, Hoa invest and Kevin Davis, Insurance Services, you’ll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes,

Robert Nordlund 00:42

Hi, I’m Robert Nordlund of association reserves,

Julie Adamen 00:44

and I’m Julie Adelman with Adam and Inc. And this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sets

Robert Nordlund 00:50

for common areas. Well, welcome to episode number 97 where we’re again speaking with management consultant and regular co host, Julie Adaman. Today we’ll be talking about the challenge of improving homeowner satisfaction. According to a recent survey by front door, approximately 70% of people living in an association would rather not live in an association governed community, and that’s going to take a bit to unpack, but that’s a lot of dissatisfaction, so follow along with us today as we address this challenge and what you can do about it at your association, we want to help the associations of our listeners thrive, hoping that you represent the 30% where the homeowners are satisfied, and lead the way to growing that number to 40% and 50% and on and on. This is a follow up to episode number 96 another of our bonus episodes. You may or may not have noticed that in a month with four Mondays, we follow a pattern of myself and co host Julie like today, myself and co host Kevin Davis myself with a subject matter episode and an episode featuring a bored hero. So in a five Monday month, we have room for something special. So if you missed that bonus episode number 96 take a moment after today’s program and listen from our podcast website, Hoa insights.org, or watch on our YouTube channel, where you can give it a like or better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms so you don’t miss any future episodes. Those of you watching on YouTube can see this HOA insights mug that I have, proudly, really has one too, very nice that I got from our merch store, which you can browse through from our HOA insights.org website, or the link in the show notes, you’ll find we have some great free stuff, like board member zoom backgrounds and some specialty items for sale, like mugs. So go to the merch store, find the mug you’d like, and if you’re the 10th person to email podcast@reservesday.com with their name and address and mug choice, mentioning episode 97 mug giveaway. I’ll ship it to you free of charge. We enjoy hearing from you responding to the issues that are facing your association. So if you have a hot topic, crazy story, or a question you’d like us to address, you can contact us at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast at reserve say.com, but this episode is our choice, because Julie and I wanted to follow up with our thoughts on this survey that you might have read about. So Julie, what do we do? Well,

Julie Adamen 03:32

you know, the survey was really interesting, and everybody you could find it at front door.com, but I read it so you don’t have to if you don’t want to. But it was very, very interesting because it indicated that 70% of people living in a homeowners association would not recommend a homeowners association to someone else. In fact, they would like to be able to move out and have a single family home. And I just thought that was really interesting because, you know, obviously some associations have a lot of problems, and others just are normal associations. In our world, there are some problems you’re always going to have that. But for 70% I mean, I live in a huge Hoa, and I like it so but maybe I

Robert Nordlund 04:15

Why do you like it?

Julie Adamen 04:18

Because I know what things cost, and if I had to pay for all the amenities that are available to me, and that’s food and beverage, I have several restaurants, golf, pools, pickleball, everything I could never afford to do that on my own. I have an inside I guess my mind goes to the insider’s track. I know how much that would have would cost for me to personally have a swimming pool in my backyard, and have to pay to go to the tennis court or pay to go wherever I don’t play pickleball. But I mean, where else you gonna find 800 different people to play pickleball with? Because that’s what they have here. So it’s these type of things. But and having managed for a long time and been around, you know, in and around and consulting and all that, there are. Are. There definitely are people who just don’t like living in an HOA, and some people shouldn’t, but I think most people don’t like it because they just don’t know how an HOA works. They don’t know well, and this is, let me go right to the big problem that everybody had. Number one, the number one thing they don’t like are the assessments. They think they’re too high, and number two, they think they don’t know where the money’s going. So if they think they’re too high and they don’t know where the money’s going, that makes people really touchy as a and forgetting all the other things that people are, as I say, are suffering for PTSD, after COVID, and last year was an election year, and you know, everything’s dialed up to 11 billion. So you heard those two things together, hurricanes, wildfires, yes, or people in LA, I mean, and just, my goodness, it’s so much stuff going on. So I got to thinking about this survey and the things that people didn’t like. And as a board member, having, I’ve been a board member a few times, but as a board member, what can you do to to kind of smooth this over with people? Well, the only thing you really can do, I mean, you can’t control them. They’re going to think how they think, but you can maybe mitigate some of those feelings by my favorite word in the world, communicating what I would consider probably above and beyond what you would think you have to do, but that’s the only way you’re going to bring the people who are unsatisfied with the amount of assessments, just take it where it is. It’s everything’s too high. How are you ever going to get to them the information they’re going to need to know, that the assessments aren’t too high. In fact, they probably should be higher at the moment, like most associations, but, but how do you get that information to those people in a form that they can readily understand and that would fit in the amount of time they want to spend looking at it. Now I know all you, Robert and I were just talking for we went on the air that he’s a numbers guy loves numbers. If you hand Robert a financial statement, he is in heaven and he’s just going to sit down and read the whole thing. It speaks to me. Yeah, it speaks to you. Now I’m on the other end of that. I mean, I can read a financial statement, but I’m on the other end of that. I would prefer, if it’s me. I want something quick and simple, because I have other things to do, and I’m thinking I prefer to see something like a pie chart, if unless I really wanted to drill down. But if you’re looking at the macro, a pie charts a great way to go. So let’s start with the first thing, I think, is that simplify how you present financial statements to people and send them out. Send out that information in the simplified version every single month, more often, if you need to, and if people want that information. So I know if you have a management company, typically your association will have a website that has the financials on the website that the homeowners can access. But that’s a it’s either a full financial statement, which a lot of people don’t understand, or it’s just the balance sheet and maybe the check register and you know, and it tells you that, which is good for a lot of people. You look at it this way, if you are a homeowner and you have a spouse, you have kids, you have a job, your spouse has a job. Your life is really, really, really busy. You don’t have time to sit down and read five pages of financial information and absorb it and have it makes make sense to you, and in the way you’ll be able to process it. So I have this in my online classes for board members as well, as far as presentation of budgets and that type of thing. But I think with every month with your financial statement pie chart, something simple that they can absorb and absorb quickly and understand that. You know, administrative costs are not the ginormous expense, the landscaping costs are the ginormous expense. Or nowadays, of course, insurance. Let’s riff on insurance here, Robert for a minute, yeah, while Kevin’s not here, well, Kevin’s and I, we should do, we should have all three of us on or for our for our 100th episode. That would be

Robert Nordlund 09:15

fun. That, yeah, hour long episode. It would Yeah, well, we don’t

Julie Adamen 09:19

want to bore everybody to debt, but, but anyway, I mean, for those of you who don’t know, I would suspect most board members are aware of this now that the cost of insurance has gone way up for your association, and even though you may tell people that or it’s a footnote down at the bottom of the budget, why the Insurance is high. I think all of these larger costs people should understand. I would be very specific about it. Why is insurance high? Well, Robert, why is insurance high? Or you can’t get it right now. Why is that?

Robert Nordlund 09:52

Kevin and I have talked about why insurance is high. It’s inflation. It’s the awards, the damages. Going up. It’s lots of things like that, but something struck me in what you said, and I want to go back to it, that there’s there’s people that are dissatisfied. And if I go back years or decades, I have this number in the back of my mind of the percentage of people that should never buy a home in an association, just because they’re they don’t, they don’t play well with others, they don’t get along with others. And that’s always been a single digit, three to 5% and I think now we have people like you said, who are anxious, they’re feeling pressure, they’re feeling discontent. It’s the COVID effect of the COVID Hangover, yeah, yeah, the COVID Hangover, yeah, where you just, you’re not trusting large organizations as much. So there’s these factors. And so we have 70, and now we’re talking about 70% okay, what can we do with that? Well, there’s something and, and you also said there they don’t have enough time. So there’s magic and simplicity, there’s magic and brevity. And if you can do what you can’t, because not everyone’s going to read clearly. You’re going to send out a newsletter. You’re going to do have monthly board meetings. You’re going to do all the normal things, and people aren’t going to go to board meetings. People aren’t going to read the newsletter. But what can you do? Hit them from every angle. Maybe you have a notice at the mailboxes. Keep doing it and make it simple and brief, all these different things you can try, because you need to poke one way or another way to try to get that information to them. And like you say, Julie, comparing to how much more it would cost if they own their own home, is you got, you got to do all you can, yeah.

Julie Adamen 11:44

And so when I’m talking about this, we talk about financial specifically and and to simplify what you send out to people, you need to send out, what you’ve got to send out, or it’s on your website. But to simplify, when it comes from the board, it’s got to be brief. And I have to tell you, as everyone knows, people don’t have a very long attention span, brought to you by these devices, but so you have to address that. We can’t just say, Oh no, they’re gonna read seven paragraphs. They’re not if they get through paragraph two, you’ll be very lucky, and that’s why now, and believe me, board members, I can hear you out there right now going well, by heavens. I wrote that, or we wrote that. We want everyone to read it all. That’s where all the information is. You are absolutely correct. But that does not change the fact that they’re not going to read it when the information is way down in paragraph seven, and it’s, you know, it’s hard to absorb and takes time to read. It’s not going to get any better, yeah,

Robert Nordlund 12:41

you need to lead off with the headlines. Inflation is real here at Happy Valley Acres, and our insurance is X percent higher than last year, and we have a roof project coming up, and we need to increase our reserve funding now. For more details, see below just things like that. It’s a community you want to build the idea that it’s a we, it’s not the board versus them. The board, yes, the board spent an hour or two trying to summarize it to one page, and they have every right to want people to read that. They tried hard, they did their level best. Is there any way we can ask homeowners to try to do a better job, or is that just deflecting responsibility?

Julie Adamen 13:25

Well, doing a better job of listening

Robert Nordlund 13:28

and reading and attending? Well,

Julie Adamen 13:33

oddly, in that survey of 41% of people said they had attended board meetings. So I thought that was really high. I was surprised. But so if, even if they’re attending, they may not be liking what they hear. And of course, the board meeting is not so where you’re going to give detailed explanations or specific explanations, otherwise you’re going to be there for five hours. So I think, honestly, I think it’s, it’s incumbent upon us as the leaders, as board members, it would be incumbent upon us to reach people where they are. And if your folks are single parents with kids, or, you know, a mom dad, or whatever form that takes with jobs, they just are so busy they don’t have time for this, right? So it’s very difficult to absorb it. So I think it’s incumbent upon us to be to communicate continuously, continuously. And I know it sounds like a lot we’re talking about that just a sec, communicate continuously, do it in the simplest form that you possibly can another way, especially if it’s a contentious issue, finances are often it when it comes around budget time, or maybe even a couple times a year, just have a town hall, kind of a financial workshop, if you will. And board members don’t think it all has to be you bring in some experts. If you have a as you have a firm that produces your financial statement, bring them in. Your insurance has gone up 60 70% bring your insurance agent. In, and they’re typically happy to come in and chat with the homeowners at a town hall about about why that is, bring your reserve study expert in to say, Okay, this is where we’re at in reserves. This is what we’re going to need to do. And bring your attorney in if you want someone to talk about the board’s fiduciary duty, and that’s why they have to raise assessments and keep up with inflation, you know, preserve, protect, maintain, so you don’t have to be the lone rangers out there taking all these slings and arrows, neck hitting and pitchforks that can be tossed at you and an expert testimony, if you will, in this type of situation. Works really well, really well,

Robert Nordlund 15:38

right? Because then it’s not you the board being the bad guys. It’s these other people saying, These are the realities in the world that we live in. Julie, in the back of my mind, yes, I’m a numbers person. You said over 40% are attending board meetings. Do you think that’s because we’ve gone virtual with so many board meetings, and board meeting is easier to

Julie Adamen 15:59

go to I would say that’s probably true, because I know most associations now are doing that, unless they’re documents specifically prohibited or state law does here. I’m living in Arizona, and in fact, we’re just just get ready to send the legislature now, but they’re going to pass a law that everybody can now have virtual meetings, because it’s been so good for attendance. I believe that’s one of the reasons so good for attendance, and it’s fantastic for people who are managers of community associations, because those of you folks out there who have a manager, if your board meeting is at seven o’clock at night, we shouldn’t have those anymore, but we still do. But if your board meetings at seven. Well, your manager may get off at five, and depending on where you live and what the commute is, they could be driving, you know, an hour to your property to be at a meeting, and then it doesn’t get out till nine or 10, and they got an hour home. This is much better for the people in management. I will say, though I like the old school, I like being with the people. I think having in person meetings is important.

Robert Nordlund 17:01

Something about the physical presence it is. It’s that. It’s the feel. Well, Julie, I was leading because I was wondering, if you don’t want to go to all this effort to have a nice budget meeting, and no one attends, because at just a budget meeting, I’m not a numbers person, would it be helpful to record that? Would it be helpful? That’s, I guess, one idea. Another idea is to have the treasurer or the president or someone just say, Hey, folks, in three minutes or five minutes, here’s a nice little YouTube summary of what’s going on here at Happy Valley for February. The budget is this. We got the, as you all know, we got the tennis court resurfaced while it’s winter time. We’re getting a new Pool Heater so we won’t have the cool pool that we had last year. Just a little update on what’s going on, five minutes, little video absolutely

Julie Adamen 17:56

and five minutes is perfect, because it doesn’t take long to record, and for you board members out there thinking, oh my god, I have to get a script. Well, that’s what AI is for. It’s a tremendous tool. If you’re not using chat, GPT or grok, which is on x, or if you have a Microsoft product, it’s a you can use copilot. You can just put in a few bullet points of what you want to cover, and ask it to make a script, and boom, it comes out. If you want to adjust it, you just tell it to adjust a little bit. And you can tell it how long you want the script to be. So there’s really no reason. And you can use your phone to record yourself, buy yourself a selfie stick, talk on it. You could do it in your house. Like, like, I like, we do these podcasts as I have a home office, so it’s what we do. Like Robert does too, yeah,

Robert Nordlund 18:39

yeah. And I just want to encourage people, Julie and I do this a lot. So we have, we some equipment. We have, well, we have some good equipment, yeah, but for a board meeting, they’re not expecting you to be the nightly news, no, and it’s okay. Get reasonable lighting, get reasonable sound, and just keep it nice and direct and smile and like we said earlier, short and sweet and easy to consume, easy way. They don’t have to say, I can’t get there because we have dinner with the Johnsons, or have to take Susie to soccer practice or whatever, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Julie Adamen 19:15

And I will tell you, though, yes, we do have really good equipment because we’re doing these podcasts, but you absolutely this is probably the best camera in your house right now. If you have an iPhone or Samsung product or something like that, very simple to use. You can set it up. In fact, don’t forget, for like, the first two years or three years of the Joe Rogan pond podcast, largest podcast in the world, they used an iPhone. That’s all they used, was an iPhone. Yes, I didn’t know that. Yes.

Robert Nordlund 19:45

Okay, wow, Julie, we’ve talked about numbers. We’ve talked about communication. At this point in time, let’s take a quick break to hear from one of our generous sponsors, after which we’ll be back with more HOA insights. On related topics.

Paige Daniels 20:01

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Robert Nordlund 20:33

and we’re back well before the break. We’re talking about the cost of living in an association. We talked about communication. But at this point in time, there’s another friction point at associations, and that’s rules. So what can a board do to make rules less onerous, onerous, onerous,

Julie Adamen 20:54

or we make it, make it somewhat more user friendly? I guess I want to say, you know, that is one of the big sticking points that people have. It’s the finances and it’s rules enforcement, and they feel like the rules are enforced unfairly. So that is something that we can address as board members, and that is, make sure your rules are being enforced fairly well. Okay. How do we do that? First of all, make sure that the rules themselves are simple and easy to understand and that they go out to the owners. I would say all the rules some some states make you do it once a year. But I think that’s a really good that’s a good benchmark, once a year rules go out and then in enforcement. We really need to try to be as fair as we possibly can, and a part of that is keeping track of everything that’s going on. If you have a management company that they should be keeping track of that for you, those rules things go through their system, and that’s really good. But another thing I want to bring up, as far as rules go, so let’s rules and regulations, architectural guidelines, other major policies and guidelines, I would advise all boards to go through every ounce of those every year, because what has a tendency to happen is that, you know, rules that were, and it is, it’s a lot of work to redo them, but rules that were, you know, put forth 678, years ago. Some of those may not even be applicable. Some may be highly out of date, and of course, that makes the board look out of touch. You know, you’re trying. You may be trying to enforce something that really doesn’t matter anymore.

Robert Nordlund 22:29

Yeah, that might be like, oh, when your kids grow up, you have different rules for different times in their lives. And if, well, I it, could it be asking the management company, what’s the number one rule? That’s getting broken? And do you focus on that once a month? You say the number one rule this month is the fire lane violations. Folks, think of what happened in California. We got to have the fire lane clear. We can’t have people parking on where it’s a red curb. It’s for your own safety. So please, please, please, don’t park in a red curb, even if you’re just bringing groceries in. Is it something like that, where you’re communicating the why? And you’re not, you’re not the bad guy. The bad guy is fire danger, not the board, exactly.

Julie Adamen 23:13

And you know, a lot of people don’t understand that. They’re just, they’re not looking at they’re like, I’m only going to be here for 10 minutes, you know? And then, but God forbid that was the time someone needed that, or not even just fire. I mean, think of, you know, rescue, ambulance, that kind of thing. So yes, and I think a lot of people don’t understand why they can’t have that third car parked on their lawn. And oddly, in the same survey, it says that the number, but Okay, people don’t like the way rules were enforced, and 30 to 40% of them, they’ve gotten those nasty grams from the HOA. On the other hand, the number one reason people do like their Hoa, and it’s almost 60% is uniformity. They like, they like the rules enforcement. So

Robert Nordlund 23:54

the place is nice. The place, yeah, we don’t have

Julie Adamen 23:57

a car up on block somewhere, you know? Yeah, front and

Robert Nordlund 24:01

there is a little bit clean and the there’s not people having a wild party in the pool at midnight, because you have and there’s guest parking because people like to have guests, and people are not parking their third or fourth vehicle in guest parking permanently. Yeah, there’s good things

Julie Adamen 24:20

that push pull is definitely a cognitive dissonance, and it’s having been in the industry for I counted it up. It’s almost 40 years. I’ve been saying 35 for, like, the last well, you started when you were five. I did. I did 40 so, but it is a cognitive dissonance, and yes, it’s very frustrating, but you but it’s the truth. And the only way to even mitigate some of that, some people just like to have that. They like that turmoil in their head. But the only way to mitigate that is this type of communication. So if you’re going through your rules and regulations, your architectural guidelines, yada yada, once a year, making sure it’s well written, making sure it’s not overly complicated. In fact. Worked in association. I sat on the board for, oh, before we moved for, gosh, the last four years, and I’d sat on it for about four or five years. 10 years prior to that, is that I rewrote because it needed to be done, the rules and regulations, and they were so full of gobbledygook and this things just went on and on and on, when really all you need to say is quiet time is after 10pm I can that’s all you need to say. And so

Robert Nordlund 25:25

even that, it’s not that you said no noise. You said, quiet time. Quiet Time is a good thing. No noise is punitive. And so just the way that you write them, oh,

Julie Adamen 25:38

it’s the tone, the tone of how you write these type of things and your newsletters, all we have people. I have all kinds of stuff on my website about this. If you ever wanted to go in and look Adam and dash inc.com Just google me and you’ll find me. But about the way boards and I get because you’re frustrated. I mean, pick up after your dogs. You know, there’s dog poop everywhere. And Baba, you know, people feel like they’ve been hit up with a rolled up newspaper. Well, that’s you don’t. People don’t want to do that. They don’t want to be feel that way. They don’t want to be talked down to, and they sure don’t want to be shamed on that. So what you want to do in that type of situation? And I know we pulled this, we even used the the slide I used before, but it’s not clean up after your dogs. It’s like, Hmm, maybe there’s not enough pet waste stations where people walk their dogs. Wow. All of a sudden we have a solution to the problem, and the board is being proactive and positive, and people want to be a part of something positive. They don’t. They don’t want to be smacked, you know? They just so it’s always be conscious of how you are, the tone of your correspondence, even your personal interaction, the tone is everything for boards.

Robert Nordlund 26:45

Yeah, well, we’re back to communication, and that’s what I want to finish on here. It’s not just communicating hard news, but communicate good news. Can you communicate things like a two bedroom just sold for a record price of $575,000

Julie Adamen 27:05

how? How much value is there to communicate? Huge value. I mean, it’s a you definitely have things you want to, you know, guide people towards following within the community. But you absolutely, I’m a board member years and years ago who used to say, spin the halo. That’s what he called it. Yeah, it’s very descriptive, celebrate the victories and give people the kudos that they need. So real estate, if the real estate market is going up in your area, that’s definitely reflective on how your community is valued. I don’t mean that. I mean how it’s valued, yes, dollar wise, but it’s also its perception of value for the people who live there. And so price is going up yet. The the pool has been replastered, or, you know, whatever, that type of thing. The roofs are going to be redone. People like to see that. And you know, folks, you accompany that with a picture, even if it’s just a quick e blurb. Here’s how the new pool looks. It opens on Tuesday, or whatever is, and people love to see that shows them. That brings us right back to finances. It shows them where there’s money. Their money is going. It’s going to keep the upkeep. And yes, it’s these things all work together. All work together. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund 28:13

I’m I’m liking this, because if you’re finding people because of pet waste, then just why don’t you spend the $200 $250 and get a new pet doggie bag? What do you call it? Waste station, pet wastage? Yeah, buy a new one. And so you fix the problem. And I hear the voice of Kevin Davis in my brain of the pool gate that doesn’t close. That’s annoying. And you can say, Oh, by the way, we heard you, and we fixed the pool gate. Here’s a picture of it, where it automatically closes and it doesn’t bang with the force of a strong man when it closes, just communicating the good things you’ve done for the association and giving them a little feedback, saying, Yeah, we heard you, and this is what we can do. And

Julie Adamen 28:58

that people, they honestly they just want to know they’ve been heard. I mean, we this whole thing about, if you’re a board member and you’re actually getting hope if you get emails at home, many, many of you do on your home email address, you know, off, if you’re like, Oh God, I don’t want to do that, because I’ll just get all these emails I can’t answer. You know, if you put an auto response on that, a very nice one, you know, this, if this requires my personal attention. I will be returning it within, you know, 72 hours, something like that. People just want, they just want that touchback, and for board members to physically say and tell homeowners, look, this was not working. We know it didn’t work. It’s been, you know, we couldn’t get a part to spend two months. And it’s working. Yes, and then thank the committee that did it, if they were the ones that did it, or if there was an individual board member that you know spearheaded that we want to thank you know, we want to thank Bob over here, for Bob right there. Yeah, yep, always, always spin that Halo yours and theirs. And you will find that over a period of time, it will build. Up the morale in your community, because, and don’t forget, 20% of your pro, 20% of your people are going to cause 80% of your problems. So let’s look at what we can do to help mitigate some of that 20% 20 to 30% in there, and so and do the best that we can, and honestly, with with technology now, using AI of some sort, you really have no excuse not to communicate with your homeowners more often and more easily for you. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund 30:30

and I like this idea of thanking the volunteers, which is a reminder to the residents that this place is run by volunteers, and then mentioning the association here at Riverview villas, we’re happy that the pool gate is finally fixed, or something like that. That reminds them that we are a community. We are different than the houses down the street. We’re different from the other houses down the street. We’re different from the apartments across the street. We are river What did I just say Riverview? Yeah, we are, and that helps build so many good things. Well, it does. Julie, as always, it’s great talking with you. Any closing thoughts to add at this time? No,

Julie Adamen 31:08

I’m just going to go back to the to what we said. And we talk about this all the time. And having been in this industry now for 40 years, everything does come down to communication, what you communicate, and how you communicate it, and when the people are unhappy, it’s typically because they don’t have all the right information. And it’s up to us as board members to give them that right information as often as is necessary, whether you do it through management or through yourself, and watch how we say things and make sure that our rules are being enforced evenly, because that’s goes to your credibility board members. If you don’t enforce rules evenly, you lose your credibility, and people don’t want to follow you. So make sure those are to make sure and look at your stuff every year, make sure you’re what you’re enforcing is even relevant now. So these are the type of things that will make your community much easier for you to manage. It’ll help you stay happier, and it will and helping you stay happier is having more happy homeowners.

Robert Nordlund 32:05

Fantastic. Well, we hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. We look forward to having you join us for another great episode next week.

Announcer 32:21

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